Tuesday, August 19, 2008

Separatism as a Fundamental Principle, 1A

Separatism as a Fundamental Principle of Christian Agrarianism, Part 1 - A
Posted by Michael Bunker
editor@biblicalagrarianism.com

(This first article is long and will be divided into several "parts" for this blog)

In this first article I hope to explain some specifics of Christian Separatism, and to clarify some errors in thinking made by many good men and women who struggle with the concept of Separatism. First let's begin with a Biblical defense of the concept of separatism as it is opposed to the worldly view of syncretism or conformity.

At the outset we should state that the word “separate” is one with the word “holy”. Holiness is separate-ness. “Holy” means “special, set aside for a specific purpose”. In the Old Testament, the English word “separate” is used 24 times, almost unanimously with this connotation of a person, place, or thing being separated unto God for His own divine purposes. The word is used 8 times in the New Testament (and we will examine these) including the command of Separatism found in 2 Corinthians 6:14-18. Only one time in the NT is “separate” used as a negative chastisement (Jude 19), and the context of that verse clearly explains just who these people were, what they separated from, and exactly what was their specific error. Christian authors
and commentators within God's true Church have always gone to great pains not to slander true Christian separatism by wrongly applying Jude 19. We will examine that verse later.

Separatism for God's people is a principle element and underlying truth found throughout all of Scripture and all of Prophecy. It exists in virtually every spiritual type and shadow given to us in the Bible.

God’s people shall dwell ALONE:

“The eternal God [is thy] refuge, and underneath [are] the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy [them]. Israel then shall dwell in safety alone: the fountain of Jacob [shall be] upon a land of corn and wine; also his heavens shall drop down dew. Happy [art] thou, O Israel: who [is] like unto thee, O people saved by the LORD, the shield of thy help, and who [is] the sword of thy excellency! and thine enemies shall be found liars unto thee; and thou shalt tread upon their high places” (Deuteronomy 33:27-29)

Most people remember that the curse of Balaam against God’s people was turned into a blessing by God, but most people do not know - exactly what was the blessing that God conferred to Israel via Balaam? What was that blessing anyway?

“How shall I curse, whom God hath not cursed? or how shall I defy, [whom] the LORD hath not defied? For from the top of the rocks I see him, and from the hills I behold him: lo, the people shall dwell alone, and shall not be reckoned among the nations (Numbers 23:8-9)

Please take some time and study and pray over this fact. While it was the purpose of Balak to curse God's people, the very specific blessing conferred upon Israel was that they should dwell alone and not be reckoned among the nations. The word “reckoned” is the Hebrew word chashab which literally means to “plait”, “braid” or “interpenetrate”. God blessed Israel through Balaam by promising them that they would dwell separately, and would not be intermixed with the world around them. We can determine, then, that the curse sought by Balak is that Israel would be “braided” into the surrounding culture.

The Divine purpose of Separation was unveiled beginning with Noah and Abraham. Also notice that separatism is always a corollary (or maybe a result) of finding grace with God. Noah was set apart when he found grace in the sight of God: “But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD” (Genesis 6:8).

Subsequent to receiving grace, Noah was ordered to be separate: “And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth” (Genesis 6:13). “But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee” (Genesis 6:18).

Abraham found grace with God. He dwelt alone and was separate:

1. Get thee out of thy country, etc.
2. I will MAKE OF THEE a great nation
3. “So Abraham departed, as the Lord had spoken unto him”

Isaac and Jacob dwelt alone… they were separate.

Joseph was separated for the fulfilling of God’s purpose, he was the progenitor of those who were forced into Egypt: “The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my
progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren” (Gen. 49:26).

The repeated cycle of Israel being separated unto God (and being blessed thereby) is inevitably followed by their apostasy as they slowly return to their old ways of conformity and syncretism with the world. Throughout this series of cycles, we are introduced to different forces, spirits or personalities – some who encourage Israel to greater separatism and holiness (God's true
prophets), and others who encourage Israel to greater conformity with the world around them (the world's prophets).

So just where do the prophets of conformity get their doctrines?

There are several different individuals or groups who (either purposefully or ignorantly) defend the concept of Christians remaining intermixed with the world. Some of these people are honestly deceived; some are generally right thinking but erroneously use the lexicon and illustrations from others who are deceived; and still others are prophets sent from the enemy (though they are allowed and given space for a time by God for His purposes) to deceive those who God would not have hear, and thus obey, the truth. I will not judge the motives of any particular person or group, I will only examine their arguments to see if any of them stand up to scrutiny.

Jesus Christ's High Priestly prayer, and “in the world, but not of it”

I should say here that much of what follows has been edited, rewritten or adapted from other articles I have written previously on the subject. All of this is from my unpublished book “The Process Driven Life”...

Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty

God’s commanded will is that His people come out from among THEM and be separate. Specifically we will be known (outwardly to the rest of the world) as His sons and daughters if the Holy Spirit brings us out from among the wicked.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven

Confusion is caused in many discussions like these because assumptions are made that should not be made. When people use the word “Christian” they often mean radically different things. There are only two ways given in scripture to know who is a Christian:

1. Their Doctrine (John 7:17, Acts 2:42, Rom. 6:17, 16:17)
2. Their Fruit (Matthew 7:16, 20, 13:23, and many other parallel verses)

It should be assumed that not everyone who claims to be a Christian is a Christian. We will know the true Christians because they will be caused by the Spirit of God to be obedient to His declared will. Those that do the declared will of the Father in heaven are the ones who enter into the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt. 7:21). Jesus said in the fifth chapter of John’s gospel that he never said or did anything unless the Father in heaven said it or did it. When Jesus commanded His children to come out from among them, then, it was because it is the declared will of the Father that all of His children will come out and be separate. This fact is also declared throughout the types and shadows in the Old Testament – which were given for our edification and for our instruction. Some of these points we have mentioned earlier, but let us review:

God’s Church (in Abraham) was commanded to get out of the former country and to go unto a land that God would show unto him… to live separate from his old kindred.

God’s Church was caused to come out from among the Egyptians and from their bondage.

God’s Church was commanded to dwell alone in the land and to not go to the world for assistance or protection.

God’s Church was commanded to go out from the wicked, and unto Christ without the camp, bearing His reproach.

God’s Church was commanded and caused to go out from Canaan before Jerusalem was destroyed.

God’s Church was caused to go out from Rome so that Rome could be judged.

God's Church was caused to flee from and separate from the established but apostate state churches of Rome and then of England.

God’s Church was caused to flee persecution in Europe and to flee to the desert where she was to dwell alone.

It is sad that the modernist “christian” system has succumbed to a religion of catchphrases and mantras, rather than a belief system based solely on the revealed and commanded Word of God. What follows is a conversation between myself (the Editor) and a man we will call Religious Worldling. The actual conversation is not fictional at all but is the conglomeration of many
conversations I have had with pastors and preachers around the world who reject the Bible’s teaching on Separatism:

Mr. RW: I have read some of your writings on Christian Separatism, and I fear you are doing your readers a great disservice and are leading them into error on this point.

Editor: Well, I certainly would not want to lead anyone into error. Maybe you can help me then? I am always willing to be corrected by the contextual teaching of scripture. Where have you found me to be in error?

Mr. RW: Christian Separatism is not Biblical. The Bible teaches that Christians are to be “in the world, but not of it”. Teaching Christians to not be in the world is teaching them to violate the scripture. Extremism is the fountain of all error. There are two great errors that Christians have to avoid: Separatism on the one hand, and Syncretism on the other. Christians are not to be separate, but neither are we to be worldly. The truth lies somewhere in between.

Editor: I think I understand what you are saying. Could you show me where in the scripture you have found these exact words… to “be in the world, but not of it”? I would appreciate it if you would assist my feeble memory, but I have in front of me the King James Bible and would like to be able to read the context of that verse.

Mr. RW: Sure. I just taught a series on this at our Church. You can find those words in John the 17th Chapter, verses 14-16.

Editor: Actually, I cannot find those words in the Gospel of John, or in any other book of the Bible. The exact phrase “in the world, but not of it” is not in the Bible at all. That exact phrase is actually a Sufi Muslim saying that was picked up by the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages. Anyone who is interested can do an internet search on the exact phrase and you will find that what I am saying is true. The one place you will not find that exact phrase, is in the Holy Bible.

Mr. RW: Ok, I understand what you are doing. Sure, the exact phrase is not in the Bible, but the teaching is right there in the 17th Chapter of John.

Editor: I will agree that the twisted version of worldliness being taught today has been violently wrenched out of the High Priestly prayer of Jesus in the 17th Chapter of John; but I will not agree for a second that Jesus is teaching (contrary to the teaching of the whole Bible) that Christians are to compromise between Separatism and Syncretism by rejecting Separatism and only partly embracing Syncretism. These words are mutually exclusive. The Bible teaches Separatism for God’s true Church from beginning to end, and only by rejecting thousands of
other scriptures, both literally and in type, can one come to the conclusions that you have come to. Let us look at the context and teaching of the prayer of Jesus in the 17th Chapter of John and see if your Sufi saying holds water:

“I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth” (John 17:14-17).

First we must understand the word “world” in each context that it is used. The word “world” is translated from the Greek word “Kosmos”, and can have several different meanings, depending on the context in which it is used. I will quote here from the teaching of the great writer and teacher A.W. Pink on the different meanings of the word “world” in the scripture, and I ask you to investigate each meaning in context. You will find Mr. Pink is correct in each case:
"Kosmos" is used of the Universe as a whole: Acts 17: 24 - "God that made the world and all things therein seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth."

"Kosmos" is used of the earth: John 13:1; Eph. 1:4, etc., etc.- "When Jesus knew that his hour was come that He should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved His own which were in the world He loved them unto the end." "Depart out of this world" signifies, leave
this earth. "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world." This expression signifies, before the earth was founded—compare Job 38:4 etc.

"Kosmos" is used of the world-system: John 12:31 etc. - "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the Prince of this world be cast out"— compare Matt. 4:8 and I John 5:19, R. V.

"Kosmos" is used of the whole human race: Rom. 3: 19, etc.—"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."

"Kosmos" is used of humanity minus believers: John 15:18; Rom. 3:6 "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated Me before it hated you." Believers do not "hate" Christ, so that "the world" here must signify the world of unbelievers in contrast from believers who love Christ. "God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world." Here is another passage where "the world" cannot mean "you, me, and everybody," for believers will not be "judged" by God, see John 5:24. So that here, too, it must be the world of unbelievers which is in view.

"Kosmos" is used of Gentiles in contrast from Jews: Rom. 11:12 etc. "Now if the fall of them (Israel) be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them (Israel) the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their (Israel’s) fulness." Note how the first clause in italics is defined by the latter clause placed in italics. Here, again, "the world" cannot signify all humanity for it excludes Israel!

"Kosmos" is used of believers only: John 1:29; 3:16, 17; 6:33; 12;47; I Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19. We leave our readers to turn to these passages, asking them to note, carefully, exactly what is said and predicated of "the world" in each place. (A.W. Pink – The Meaning of Kosmos in John
3:16).

The term “kosmos” or “world” as it is used in the verses you have quoted from the 17th Chapter of John, ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT mean “the world culture” (which in every other place we are commanded to leave and flee), but it means “the universe as a whole”, or “the earth”. You will find this to be true because it is used that way in this very chapter, before and after the verses you have quoted. In verse 11, we find Jesus praying to the Father and instructing the disciples that He is going to leave the EARTH (17:4) and go to HEAVEN:

“And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are” (John 17:11).

Jesus specifically states that He is going to leave the world (the earth), but that His disciples will be left behind on the earth, as He is going to the Holy Father.

In verse 24, we find Jesus praying to the Father that the ones given to Jesus by the Father will one day be with Him where He is going (so we see that this word 'world' is about location and not culture or society):

“Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world” (John 17:24).

So we see that the word “world” in this chapter can absolutely NOT mean “the world culture” or “the unsaved world”, but it means “the created universe”, or, “the earth”. God has not chosen to take us off the planet and to Heaven while we are alive, but has chosen to leave us in His created universe for His glory; both for evangelism purposes (examined later), and so that we will stand as a divine rebuke to the world. The very same chapter teaches that:

1.) Jesus does not pray for the unsaved and wicked world (John 17:9).

2.) Jesus only prays for and loves the ones who either believe on Him now, or who will be caused to believe on Him through the teaching of the disciples, which is inclusive of the total sum of
those who are given to Christ by the Father (John 17:20, 17:6).

Jesus not only does not specifically teach us to be “in the world” as in the culture of the world; but He specifically teaches us the exact opposite:

1.) He teaches that we are not of the world (the world culture), just as He was not of the world culture, but lived separately from the world culture (John 17:14).

2.) He prays that the Father will sanctify (separate and purify) us from the world system (17:16-17)

3.) He prays that since He is leaving the created world, that the Father will protect and keep unified and separated from the world those whom the Father has given Him.

4.) He claims that while He was with His disciples in the created world, He protected them and separated them from the world systems (John 17:12).

5.) He promises that the world HATES His children, because they are not a part of the world culture (John 17:14).

Now you, and preachers like you, are teaching a compromise between Separatism (coming out and being separate from the world) and Syncretism (fully embracing the world system), but there can be no compromise between these two systems. The Bible teaches Separatism throughout, and ANY step at all in the direction of embracing the world culture is Syncretism and is an error. You cannot be halfway between these two teachings, by their very definitions.

Mr. RW: I can see why people are convinced by you, but our own experience and understanding of how the world works requires that Christians, in order to evangelize the world, be in the world.

Editor: I am not here to convince anyone. Declaring the truth will convince those who God chooses to know the truth; while it will cause the world to hate us, even as Christ has said. Now once again you confuse terms, while the very conversation we are having refutes your argument. Here I sit before you as a Separatist (which you yourself claim that I am). I am in the created universe, existing on this planet (which is what John 17 claims), yet I desire more than anything to be, and am continuously being, separated from the world culture into Christian Community. You admit this is true of me by calling me a Separatist. Yet, here I am before you evangelizing you. I am declaring the truth of the Bible to you; and this is the very heart of evangelism. I
do not have to embrace and live in the world’s culture, the world’s cities, nor do I need to partake of the world’s dainties in order to evangelize. My LIFE is evangelism, and yet I am a Separatist. Merely separating from the worldly religious ilk is evangelism because the truth is manifest by Christians walking in the LIGHT of scripture. The LIGHT is the light of men. LIGHT is contrasted with darkness. Light which is mixed up with darkness loses it’s attribute of light-ness. Light is the most effective when it is gathered together in strength, where it stands as a rebuke to darkness. What you have taught is NOT what the Bible teaches, and pithy catchphrases cannot refute the entire teaching of God’s Word on the subject. You can rest assured that the Bible is a Separatist book. The very word “Holy” means SEPARATE, so the very front cover of my Bible declares "SEPARATE BIBLE" on it. There can be no holiness without separatism. There is only Separatism or Syncretism. One is true and one is false.

RW: I cannot agree with you. Experience denies it. The whole history of the Church is one of growing outward into the world evangelistically.

Editor: Respectfully, there you are wrong once again, and it seems you have now coupled ignorance of scripture with a profound ignorance of history. The History of the true Church is a history of Separatism.

Christ separated out His apostles from among men. They were to leave their jobs and lives and be dedicated to Him alone. Those who Christ evangelized were of two sorts… Christ saw a great multitude following Him and separated them by giving commandment that they should “depart to the other side” (Matthew 8:18). Some refused to follow and made excuses because they had pressing business in the world (even after claiming that they would follow Him “withersoever”
He went!) Only His chosen disciples followed Him. This is separation. Out of the “great multitude” only His disciples followed Him.

God calls His true Church to separate and to live in community. It is their own fear and slavish wickedness that calls them back into the world before long. Remember that the same separated disciples (who Christ pulled out of the world) chose to return to their employments after the
death of Christ (John 21:3). Christ went and retrieved them to His work. We see in history the pattern of God separating the Church, followed by a time of apostasy creeping in that causes them to join once again to the world.

When 3,000 believed during the day of Pentecost, they immediately separated from their old lives, sold their properties and began to live in community with the Christians in Jerusalem. When persecution began after the stoning of Stephen, the Christians separated from Jerusalem
into Christian communities abroad. Christians eventually drifted back into Jerusalem and back into a life of Syncretism, but when the Romans began to surround Jerusalem, the Christians separated completely into a Christian community in Pella and the Decapolis. Once again Syncretism set in, and once again God brought persecution and death to the Church through the hand of the Caesars to separate out the real Christians from the mere professors. Christians again separated into Christian communities in the countryside and in the caves and catacombs. Those who were never a part of the Roman system (the Waldenses and others) lived separately in the Alps of Switzerland, France, and Italy and kept the apostolic belief system pure and untainted by the errors of Rome. Later, true Christians who had been enslaved by Rome were caused to flee syncretism with her and to separate from the Apostate Church during the Reformation. After the decrees of Conformity, Christians once again fled syncretism and separated into Puritan Christian communities. So, history teaches that Separatism is the work of God, and that Syncretism is the work of the devil. There IS NO MIDDLE GROUND.

RW: I see that there is no reasoning with you, so I will leave you alone in your error.

Editor: I will be taught from the Bible, but if it is your reasoning alone that you require that I worship, I will of course refuse.

Obedience requires that we heed the commandments of God. Separation is not an option for God’s elect… it is a commandment. As the scriptures say, “come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord”. Fear of freedom prevents most who believe that they are the called of God from ever separating from the world. Modernist lies and mantras, some based on Sufi sayings and catchphrases and not on the plain and contextual teaching of Scripture, have overwhelmed the professing “church”. Remember, it is the secular world that has made Separatism into a foul word, and they have done it for the same reason that Jesus said that they cannot love Him or His children. They hate separatism because they love death (Prov. 8:36) and they despise wisdom (Prov. 1:7). The world needs Christians to bow to it, but Christians definitely do not need the world. If we do not follow Christ in His commandment that we separate ourselves and live in loving Christian community, it is because we still love the world and because we are afraid of freedom. Repentance begins with the gift of believing the truth about ourselves; however, people do not obey because they lack faith. But Christ is the fountainhead of faith. All who truly desire to grow into maturity and perfection in Christ should pray as the disciples did, “Lord, increase our faith” (Luke 17:5). All others are mere professors, and they are known NOT by their words, but by their deeds.

Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

(continued in Part 1-B)

1 Comments:

At September 11, 2008 9:04 PM , Blogger Ian said...

Michael,

Greetings in the name of our King Jesus. Forgive me for commenting on an older post, but, at your encouragement, in order to get the full benefit of your lastest entry, I started here. I want to start by saying that I agree with your conviction of separation; it is something that my family has been convinced of over the recent years and are just now trying to put legs on. I do, however, have a few questions regarding your explanation of the Scriptures, particularly the prayer of our Lord in John 17. I ask these questions and bring these things up for consideration so that I may better understand your case. In order to be clear and guard from misrepresentation, I will quote you when appropriate. Like right now. You said, "The term 'kosmos' or 'world' as it is used in the verses you have quoted from the 17th Chapter of John, ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT mean 'the world culture' (which in every other place we are commanded to leave and flee), but it means 'the universe as a whole', or 'the earth'. You will find this to be true because it is used that way in this very chapter, before and after the verses you have quoted. In verse 11, we find Jesus praying to the Father and instructing the disciples that He is going to leave the EARTH (17:4) and go to HEAVEN:"

You supported this statement by quoting John 17:11 and 24, further stating that “we see that this word 'world' is about location and not culture or society,” and concluding that, "So we see that the word 'world' in this chapter can absolutely NOT mean 'the world culture' or 'the unsaved world', but it means 'the created universe', or, 'the earth'. God has not chosen to take us off the planet and to Heaven while we are alive, but has chosen to leave us in His created universe for His glory; both for evangelism purposes (examined later), and so that we will stand as a divine rebuke to the world."
I was hoping you could help me understand these statements alongside ones that you made later in the article, such as in this section:

"Jesus not only does not specifically teach us to be 'in the world' as in the culture of the world; but He specifically teaches us the exact opposite:

1.) He teaches that we are not of the world (the world culture), just as He was not of the world culture, but lived separately from the world culture (John 17:14).

2.) He prays that the Father will sanctify (separate and purify) us from the world system (17:16-17)

3.) He prays that since He is leaving the created world, that the Father will protect and keep unified and separated from the world those whom the Father has given Him.

4.) He claims that while He was with His disciples in the created world, He protected them and separated them from the world systems (John 17:12).

5.) He promises that the world HATES His children, because they are not a part of the world culture (John 17:14)."


Again, I agree with your overall conclusion, but it appears that there is a bit of a contradiction in saying that kosmos in John 17:14-17 “ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT mean ‘the world culture’ ”, but then say that, “[Jesus] teaches that we are not of the world (the world culture), just as He was not of the world culture, but lived separately from the world culture (John 17:14).” This problem seems to run through each of the five points you listed in your article, and that I have quoted above.

Secondly, it seems problematic to me to insist that kosmos mean, at least only mean, “created universe” in vss 14-17 for the simple fact of the implications it would have, particularly in vss 14 and 16. Consider the following translation based on the statement that “The term ‘kosmos’ or ‘world’ as it is used in the verses you have quoted from the 17th Chapter of John, ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT mean ‘the world culture’, but it means ‘the universe as a whole’, or ‘the earth’”:

I have given them thy word; and the created universe hath hated them, because they are not of the created universe, even as I am not of the created universe. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the created universe, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the created universe, even as I am not of the created universe. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth” (John 17:14-17)

Again, please consider vss 14 and 16. What does it mean for the creeated universe to hate God’s people? Does not Romans 8 tell us that the creation waits with eager expectation the manifestation of the sons of God? What does it mean that the people of God are “not of the the created universe”? How do we reconcile this with the opening chapters of Genesis? And are we denying a real, human, fleshly incarnaion of our Messiah by saying that He is “not of the created universe”? Please do not think that I am implying that this is what you are saying, but I trust that you can see the question emerge from this translation, from the hard and fast rule that “The term ‘kosmos’ or ‘world’ as it is used in the verses you have quoted from the 17th Chapter of John, ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT mean ‘the world culture... .’” Indeed, I know that this is not what you are saying as you clearly state in your five points that these verses, 14 and 16, refer to “the world culture”, but, again, these conclusions seem to contradict those that precede them.

Finally, I was wondering if you would be willing to discuss your eschatalogical views. I believe that our understanding of what happens in “the end”, our hope of what is to come, is a major piece in the conversation of what we are to be doing now, and how we are to be doing it.

I want to thank you for your humility before God and His word and your example of consistancy between faith and practice. I ask these questions and bring these things to your attention so that I may better understand your thinking and so that I may labor along side you in my little corner of the created universe.

For the Kingdom,
Ian Graves

 

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