Scattershooting: Peaches and Stuff
7/10/08 - 5th Day - After Breakfast. Hey, here are the peaches from our first ever peach crop here at the Ranch...
Providentially, a great quote was posted on the BiblicalAgrarianism.com forum this morning. The thread was about Matthew 22, and a friend posted a quote from Matthew Henry:
Many years ago, when I was teaching on Conspiracy and on the wickedness of the established, corporate "church", I had a huge audience. I could pack in 500 people in a small meeting room with no problem. Every meeting was standing room only. That is because I was preaching a watered-down political gospel. When I repented of that, and began to preach on the Doctrines of Grace, and to emphasize God's Sovereignty and the importance of a proper view of God, we lost probably 80% of the audience. I would regularly get emails from Arminians, Papists, and other worldlings BEGGING me to soften the message and to be more inclusive. "Have more grace and mercy... you know, like Christ did!" they would say. I knew that I could not soften the message, and that it needed to be a sword, and that it needed to be as pointed and sharp as the true Gospel is. It was meant to divide, and so divide it must. Many people were mad... many of them had been really good friends. "LEGALIST!" they would charge. They would insist that I was limiting the broadness of God's love. "All we need to do is believe", they would say. "Can't we all just get along?"
A couple of years later, I saw how unbalanced the neo-Calvinism movement was. The New Reformation was actually not a reformation at all. It was a headlong dive into Antinomianism. "Since God is Sovereign," many would say, "then it doesn't matter what I am doing... I am in God's will". Every manner of sin and disobedience was rationalized by saying, "Well, you know, God is sovereign. Wherever you are, and whatever you are doing, that is God's will for you." So I preached against it. "LEGALIST!" came the charge. And another load of friends dropped off the map. Not before attacking ME first. You know, the guy they once praised and thanked for "bringing them the true gospel".
Once again the audience shrunk. I have not been invited to preach in a Church for so many years I cannot remember.
Then came Agrarianism. It was something I had always, somehow, known - but the Lord really put it on my heart that our Christianity was emaciated and crippled, because the ground we were trying to grow in was BAD SOIL. It came to me that Agrarianism was the only proper seedbed for proper Christian growth. Separatism, community, simplicity - these were all the support system for proper Christian maintenance. It had to be true, because the Bible teaches it from cover to cover. So once again I began preaching the message that God had given me, and once again the result was a devastating rejection from friends and former allies. People who once called me a "prophet" and a "mighty man of God" (I never use terms anything like this, nor would I accept any type of name or title), were now saying that I had gone too far. I was forgetting "the joy of our salvation". The Gospel is simple, don't you know. Just believe in the Doctrines of Grace, and find some preacher to tell you you are fine, and you will find the pressure and weight lift right off your shoulders. No more self-examination, because that is just "legalism". No more striving, running, pushing forward, fighting the good fight. That is for legalists. Now I am accused by former friends of preaching a false gospel, of being judgmental and legalistic. Ok. Been here before. I'll take whatever stripes you want to give out. But don't be fooled. God is not mocked. I may not always be right, but I am right about this. Write it down.
I have joy in my salvation. If you don't think I do, then you don't know me. My assurance comes from God. I don't want to be deceived, and I don't want to be fooled. I am not willing to be happy and comfortable for a few years, then perish eternally in flames. I want true assurance, which is grounded in peace given by God. It is received by constant watching, and by diligence in checking the signs. People who meet me and get to know me know that the way my message is perceived by some people doesn't come from me or the message. If what I say angers you, then you will say that I am angry. If what I say depresses you, then you will say that I am depressing. It is a type of spiritual projection. It is like when you tell a homosexual that homosexuality is not just a sin or an abomination, but that it is judgment from God (Romans 1). The homosexual is very angry that you have said that, and he really hates you for saying it. So he will call you an angry hater. Even if you have no anger or hatred at all when you say it.
So, I don't mean to draw this out, but it is important that I say it. True obedience and watchfulness does not contradict or preclude joy or assurance - in fact, it is the proper foundation and ground for joy and assurance.
I don't make this stuff up.
To God's little flock...
Keep the faith. STRIVE to enter in at the narrow gate. Run the race. Push into the Kingdom. Contend against sin and rationalization. Do not turn back, take your hand off the plow, or neglect so great a salvation.
Ok, so some of you have inquired about the philosophy you have read (on separation and Agrarianism)... here is a great place to start. Read all the posts, you will find the philosophy throughout the series:
Center for Agrarian and Homesteading Education
If you've already read it, then why not read it again?
Michael Bunker
Providentially, a great quote was posted on the BiblicalAgrarianism.com forum this morning. The thread was about Matthew 22, and a friend posted a quote from Matthew Henry:
"The day is coming, when hypocrites will be called to account for all their presumptuous intruding into gospel ordinances, and usurpation of gospel privileges. Take him away. Those that walk unworthy of Christianity, forfeit all the happiness they presumptuously claimed. Our Saviour here passes out of the parable into that which it teaches. Hypocrites go by the light of the gospel itself down to utter darkness."I can't think of a better way to say what I have been trying to say in the last month or so. Masters of rationalization (which most people are) can erect a false dialectic (I like to call it an "A" and "B" situation), then will rationalize their adherence to same false reasoning, by playing their decision off of the false premise or presupposition that they have created. For example, when anyone speaks of obedience, suffering, or sacrifice - these people will immediately trump all of that with talk of a simple gospel, and the simple joy of salvation. Listen, I am all for the joy of salvation. I am all for a simple gospel. But just saying those things doesn't make the gospel that is believed correct, or the joy that is experienced to be valid or rational. Since there are many gospels, a gospel can be simple... but wrong. Since there are many "salvations", having joy in a deceptive view of salvation would be folly. I always want to remind people never to make obedience, rules, or behavior a pillar or part of salvation. That would be silly and wrong. If you have done so, then you are in error. However, to say that you believe in a simple gospel that ignores the RESULTS of believing that gospel - which is obedience and sanctification, is just ridiculous and dangerous.
Many years ago, when I was teaching on Conspiracy and on the wickedness of the established, corporate "church", I had a huge audience. I could pack in 500 people in a small meeting room with no problem. Every meeting was standing room only. That is because I was preaching a watered-down political gospel. When I repented of that, and began to preach on the Doctrines of Grace, and to emphasize God's Sovereignty and the importance of a proper view of God, we lost probably 80% of the audience. I would regularly get emails from Arminians, Papists, and other worldlings BEGGING me to soften the message and to be more inclusive. "Have more grace and mercy... you know, like Christ did!" they would say. I knew that I could not soften the message, and that it needed to be a sword, and that it needed to be as pointed and sharp as the true Gospel is. It was meant to divide, and so divide it must. Many people were mad... many of them had been really good friends. "LEGALIST!" they would charge. They would insist that I was limiting the broadness of God's love. "All we need to do is believe", they would say. "Can't we all just get along?"
A couple of years later, I saw how unbalanced the neo-Calvinism movement was. The New Reformation was actually not a reformation at all. It was a headlong dive into Antinomianism. "Since God is Sovereign," many would say, "then it doesn't matter what I am doing... I am in God's will". Every manner of sin and disobedience was rationalized by saying, "Well, you know, God is sovereign. Wherever you are, and whatever you are doing, that is God's will for you." So I preached against it. "LEGALIST!" came the charge. And another load of friends dropped off the map. Not before attacking ME first. You know, the guy they once praised and thanked for "bringing them the true gospel".
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? (Gal 4:16)I have been careful to never say that obedience causes salvation, or that it brings about or causes the approval and acceptance of God. I have always said that obedience, separation, and holiness were RESULTS of believing the true Gospel. They are gifts of God. However, where they are absent, there is likely a problem. That is the message I have always preached. Some feel condemned by that, and so they feel the need to attack me and to demean the message because they aren't showing signs of conversion.
Once again the audience shrunk. I have not been invited to preach in a Church for so many years I cannot remember.
Then came Agrarianism. It was something I had always, somehow, known - but the Lord really put it on my heart that our Christianity was emaciated and crippled, because the ground we were trying to grow in was BAD SOIL. It came to me that Agrarianism was the only proper seedbed for proper Christian growth. Separatism, community, simplicity - these were all the support system for proper Christian maintenance. It had to be true, because the Bible teaches it from cover to cover. So once again I began preaching the message that God had given me, and once again the result was a devastating rejection from friends and former allies. People who once called me a "prophet" and a "mighty man of God" (I never use terms anything like this, nor would I accept any type of name or title), were now saying that I had gone too far. I was forgetting "the joy of our salvation". The Gospel is simple, don't you know. Just believe in the Doctrines of Grace, and find some preacher to tell you you are fine, and you will find the pressure and weight lift right off your shoulders. No more self-examination, because that is just "legalism". No more striving, running, pushing forward, fighting the good fight. That is for legalists. Now I am accused by former friends of preaching a false gospel, of being judgmental and legalistic. Ok. Been here before. I'll take whatever stripes you want to give out. But don't be fooled. God is not mocked. I may not always be right, but I am right about this. Write it down.
I have joy in my salvation. If you don't think I do, then you don't know me. My assurance comes from God. I don't want to be deceived, and I don't want to be fooled. I am not willing to be happy and comfortable for a few years, then perish eternally in flames. I want true assurance, which is grounded in peace given by God. It is received by constant watching, and by diligence in checking the signs. People who meet me and get to know me know that the way my message is perceived by some people doesn't come from me or the message. If what I say angers you, then you will say that I am angry. If what I say depresses you, then you will say that I am depressing. It is a type of spiritual projection. It is like when you tell a homosexual that homosexuality is not just a sin or an abomination, but that it is judgment from God (Romans 1). The homosexual is very angry that you have said that, and he really hates you for saying it. So he will call you an angry hater. Even if you have no anger or hatred at all when you say it.
So, I don't mean to draw this out, but it is important that I say it. True obedience and watchfulness does not contradict or preclude joy or assurance - in fact, it is the proper foundation and ground for joy and assurance.
I don't make this stuff up.
To God's little flock...
Keep the faith. STRIVE to enter in at the narrow gate. Run the race. Push into the Kingdom. Contend against sin and rationalization. Do not turn back, take your hand off the plow, or neglect so great a salvation.
Ok, so some of you have inquired about the philosophy you have read (on separation and Agrarianism)... here is a great place to start. Read all the posts, you will find the philosophy throughout the series:
Center for Agrarian and Homesteading Education
If you've already read it, then why not read it again?
Michael Bunker
posted by Michael Bunker at 7/10/2008 07:09:00 AM
10 Comments:
Keep on preachin it Michael!
"No more self-examination, because that is just "legalism". No more striving, running, pushing forward, fighting the good fight. That is for legalists."
Yep, that is really unheard of anymore....just "rest in Christ" (AHHHH, ignorance IS bliss), but NEVER examine
1. whether your doctrine is sound, or if you even HAVE any doctrinal foundation
2. whether the Christ you find yourself "resting" in is the true Christ of the Bible
3. whether you are truly separated, or at least in the process, as God commands
4. whether you, and the people you fellowship with, are actually living a Christian life in your/their orthopraxy or even have any concept of what that is (most likely not, nor want to know about it)
5. whether the "church"/fellowship you attend gives a rip about right doctrine, not just lip service to it
6. whether your church/fellowship is a 501-c3 slave to the Beast
7 etc etc etc
Bill
Those are beautiful peaches. As is often the case with your teaching, I'm not sure what to say other than it always exhorts me to continue in study and self-examination. I always analyze it in terms of "are you talking to me", not from a defensive point of view, but from an acknowledged need to continue learning. Thank you for that.
Judy
Keep the faith. STRIVE to enter in at the narrow gate. Run the race. Push into the Kingdom. Contend against sin and rationalization. Do not turn back, take your hand off the plow, or neglect so great a salvation.
The sad part is I've met many who say they're doing those things however when they're quizzed further they cannot really explain how they're doing those things.
Keep up the good work Michael.
ok so in the 1234567 etc etc we still lump everybody in. "or at-least" and "or evens" are inclusive statements. (anybody can wiggle themselves in an at least or an or even. we self examin by looking (judging)at others but then pride comes in and we are really back at square one. dealing with our plank. thats what i liked about the spirit of the last post, was it made a blanket statement but with the understanding that a blanket covers a large area. there simply are christians at every level. new born babes drinking milk, raw even and then some eating chopped steak and at the same time christians with a steak and taters. i set the standard in my life by which others will judge me. by my obedience and joy etc. and that judgement will bring conviction to their own life. it wont be my standard as much as the lack of theirs that will bring it. they will see the running the pushing forward and striving but in a submissive and joyful manner. drudgery has never been a favorite of the masses.
KJV
Sorry if I came off as prideful, that IS always a danger, but my little rant is more from a source of frustration than anything else.
My wife and I are having to separate from a small Fellowship, of people we really like and respect (many of them), because they cling to their Arminian beliefs ("resting in an Arminian Christ"), give lip service to doctrine, and have no concept of true Biblical separation. We've talked to some, shared Biblical Ag with others, me especially with one guy I had high hopes for, but to no avail.
They do many things fairly well, especially against the backdrop of the average megawhorehouses (the activities of which is lightly lamented during sermons from time to time) of our day, but there is no true desire for doctrine or separation. Yes, some there will wail and lament in prayer from time to time that they need to be separate from the world, but they would never truly do it, at least from what I've seen. And the majority, by far, have been professing Christians for many years...not too many babes running around.
Bottomline...while a few in there MAY BE elect, I do believe that is very possible, right now, there is none with the twin evidences of doctrine and fruit. God forbid that I be writing this out of pride, or unaware of how far I still have to go...I don't think I am, I pray I'm not.
You're right, drudgery is never gonna appeal to the masses, but neither is true Christianity, being lived out.
Bill
Bill,
Yes, and if it appeals to the masses (according to the Gospel) it is not the Gospel.
Michael
that is the problem. how do we do both. scripturally i see both. separate and together. Narrow way and few that find it and three thousand at pentecost. so how do we not appeal to the masses and teach all nations. i agree with your post earlier. been there done that. i read it and said wow i could have wrote that. so i wasnt saying you were prideful or even the post was but i could lead there. in my post though i didnt say "appeal" i said favorite. so no Christ doesn't appeal to us, he convicts us, which is what i was saying. that conviction doesnt come by our living but by how they are living in contrast. now the drawing of the Holy Spirit will break through some hearts but others it wont. thats how i see it. but if we have first showed them a joyful and delightful spirit then we have reflected Christ, not a magnified us. thats to the lost and to all the different levels of a Christian in/on his walk. God Bless. i just re-read and this is clear as mudd.
KJV,
I understand what you are saying, but I just don't see how it applies. First, I disagree that our first obligation is to win others, or to evangelize. I believe we evangelize by our obedience. To say that those who are obedient don't have joy is just not true. Any who see us see our joy at our lives and community. It is like a guy who visited one time and he said, "I appreciate all this, but eventually you will all get to bickering and arguing and it will all fall apart", well, that is just foolishness. If we are obedient, submissive, and show love, then we are displaying the love of God. To not move because of what "might" happen (such as, XXX 'might' lead to pride), is just to come up with reasons not to do what we ought to do. It's all speculation based on fear, not based on reality. Other than that, I really don't have a clue what you are trying to say. It seems to me to just be muddying the waters a bit.
In Christ,
Michael
never said it was our first obligation, so i dont know what your disagreeing with. the post by bill peck was the intent. that these things that we are to self examine with are the things that we (i anyway, and mr. peck according to his statement about his church) tend to do to others. its just easier to judge others. that is the problem. we dont (individually/personally) move forward, press into kingdom, do whats right (separate) because we just justified our plank with the list of 1234567 etc etc. that by the way is what i like about Mr. bunker, is he follows through with conviction (well other than the speedracer thing, ha ha) and lives it. i dont know you so i just believe you about the joy part. no reason not to in other words. so my point before it got to be a non-point was as we grow and yield to conviction if we do it in joy, then we did are part. the other stuff was in response to mr peck and his church thing. that there are christians on the path that are at different levels. different thinking. anyway lets wrap it up at that. God Bless ( im in agreement with you, wasnt trying to argue.
zrfvhsrmr. bunker
also i re read all again and when you said "to say that those who are obedient don't have joy is just not true." when did i say that. i was agreeing with you. i never even alluded to that. quite the opposite. again brother, i am on the agreeing side of this. the fight the pushing etc but with joy. the reason i think that guy said it would fall apart was that people in the christian church scene dont know what joy is. they see fake joy all the time, so when he saw that true joy with your fellowship/community, he reacted, and said what he said. that was my whole point. your true joy brought conviction. and again it wasnt you but the lack of joy in his life. keep up the good work.
i met you at the Vincents house in springfield.
Post a Comment
Links to this post:
Create a Link
<< Home